SHADO
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

News:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Add Poll Send Topic
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Writing (and staying!) in Character (Read 4696 times)
Normandie
Captain
***
Offline


UFO Rocks!

Posts: 132
Location: In the veg patch...
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #15 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:06am
Print Post  
Hi Guina
I tried to add this comment last night but the site was having a hissy fit and souldnt let me. So:

Alba wrote on Nov 17th, 2010 at 8:17pm:
Yes, sex can be a reaction to death. But usually this would entail both participants being in a situation of being threatened with death, and "feasting" life through an act of "lifemaking". At least that's what my understanding of that psychological mechanism is.

I think it can also be linked to behaviour of, say, parents after the loss of a child. One would think that sex wouldn't be an obvious response in that situation but it's a level of contact - and yes, affirmation of life - that some people seek as a release at that time of stress.

I'm not saying Alec Freeman would do this but I don't think it is out of the question. For me, him drinking his way down a bottle would be less likely because that could affect his functioning at a time of danger for SHADO - and at a time when he would be focussed at finding out what the hell happened - and I think his sense of responsibility would prevent him getting really drunk. I think Shepherd is set in the late 2000s? Louise? I would probably argue that casual sex for women would be more likely exploitative in 1980. But 30 years on... not so much. Would Freeman have got drunk in 1980? Yes, that fits. As written in 2006 / 7... for me, less likely.

But that's just my take on the character.

Guina, we differ in our interpretations of what might be in character and what would not. I see no aggression. Its a discussion, a debate - there is nothing wrong with debate. And this is a debate about the possible actions of a character briefly written 40 years ago who was supposed to be living in a future that took place 30 years ago. His character is being expanded (in a writing sense) in the noughties. We are all going to have different takes on what feels right and what does not and this may also be influenced by our age when we first watched the show and our own (and other peoples) real experiences over the years. This makes absolute agreement about character behaviour unlikely. But thats part of the interest.

This morning, from the article -
Quote:
...the reason they still take part in it may be due to the menstrual cycle changes influencing their sexual motivation. Indeed, during the ovulatory phase (between days 10 to 18 of their cycle), women report increased sexual desire and arousal, with a preference for short-term partners.

I have long believed that because I've witnessed it first-hand with friends over the years. I know it has led to a number of "I had an itch so I scratched it" encounters and occasionally encounters where the men were interested in seeing the women after the "dates" but the women weren't interested. With the three women I'm thinking of one was single, one was long-term separated (Catholic husband) and one was bi-sexual and for long-term relationships preferred women.

Mostly, none of them ever said that their occasional one-nighter (or over-the-weekender) was anything but satisfactory and good fun. And on rare occasion, a total waste of a good nights sleep! However, the long-term separated did eventually settle down with someone she'd met on what was initially a 2-night stand, but only about a year later. They kept meeting at conferences and eventually...

All were successful career women with no particular hang-ups - about anything, really. They knew who they were and were happy and confident in their skin. Though, interestingly (I think!) the conference one-nighter was a doctor, an oncologist, and said that after a day of discussing how slowly progress was being made in her specialism oesophageal and associated cancers you needed more than a drink. She smoked too.

And the article you cited did say that 54% of women had overall positive feelings about the experience. That is a (small, admittedly) majority.

  Quote:
Seeking out a woman for anonymous one-time sex, already knowing that the sole reason you do that is to plug up or forget a feeling of sorrow is exploiting the woman. It's not about having fun together. It's not even about sex.

Sex is often not about sex. All sorts of emotions go into the mix. However, I'm imagining the plot might lead to someone Freeman knows and trusts providing the sex - not a "she was there so I took advantage" type of situation.

Im not particularly arguing that Freeman would or should have a one-night-stand, merely that he might if the circumstances were right and that if it happened, it would not follow that it must be man exploiting woman. Many (most?) women are better than that; they don't set themselves up as victims. But that, of course, is all in the writing and plotting. Cool

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lightcudder
Colonel
*****
Offline


Trust no one.

Posts: 1311
Location: Here. When you least expect it
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #16 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:36am
Print Post  
Quote:
Guina, we differ in our interpretations of what might be in character and what would not. I see no aggression. Its a discussion, a debate - there is nothing wrong with debate. And this is a debate about the possible actions of a character briefly written 40 years ago who was supposed to be living in a future that took place 30 years ago. His character is being expanded (in a writing sense) in the noughties. We are all going to have different takes on what feels right and what does not and this may also be influenced by our age when we first watched the show and our own (and other peoples) real experiences over the years. This makes absolute agreement about character behaviour unlikely. But thats part of the interest.


What I find interesting is that my intial 'preconceptions' of Alec, as an alcohol-enjoying womaniser, have really been fuelled, not only by my view of seeing the programmes as a 17 yr old over 40 yrs ago, but also by reading a lot of fanfiction that has placed him in that sphere So it is great to read valid and yet differiing views from people.

One aspect that I hadn't seriously thought about in relation to sex and drinking is the current thinking of today's society. I don't have smoking in my UFO stories.. but I hadn't really thought about sex and alcohol.. and drugs never crossed my mind, although Shepherd is going to come into contact with hard drug users at some stage.!! ( Naive , here!)
So I wil look at Alec and consider everything... and hopefully come up with an Alec who is a better defined, and more realistic, character than I had originally conceived!
  

I need some air.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Guina
Ex Member


Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #17 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:57am
Print Post  
Hi Normandie,

and here you are distracting me from writing a scene for Straker where he broaches the birds and the bees topic with Jolene. Can't say I mind, it is tacky going just now. *laughing heartily*

Quote:
I think it can also be linked to behaviour of, say, parents after the loss of a child. One would think that sex wouldn't be an obvious response in that situation but it's a level of contact - and yes, affirmation of life - that some people seek as a release at that time of stress.


For some parents yes, that would be a reaction. For others sex may cease to be of any relevance after the death of a child. Here both is possible, I think.

Quote:
For me, him drinking his way down a bottle would be less likely because that could affect his functioning at a time of danger for SHADO - and at a time when he would be focussed at finding out what the hell happened - and I think his sense of responsibility would prevent him getting really drunk. I think Shepherd is set in the late 2000s? Louise? I would probably argue that casual sex for women would be more likely exploitative in 1980. But 30 years on... not so much. Would Freeman have got drunk in 1980? Yes, that fits. As written in 2006 / 7... for me, less likely.


I disagree with this. I know too many people who drink, on the job, off the job, anywhere.

Heck, Normandie, you should know! Just go into any sort of bistro at noon in France and watch what the French drink. For the vast majority it's not Perrier and that includes the Quai D'Orsay. Grin Grin Grin

To me it is far more likely he'd drink a couple of scotches, than go out and pick up a woman, whether today or in the 1980ies. He might hide it these days, though, as opposed to the open drinking in the past. Just as people do it nowadays.

Maybe he'd abuse other substances today? There are enough of those around, uppers, downers, little green helpers. A visit to the doc and you get your dose of Prozac. It's become so easy. I was shaking my head just a few days ago at a friend ceasing to smoke with the help of an anti-depressant. No problem for her doc. Duh.

At least 3 of 10 of my acquaintances lately use such drugs, a lot of them are high up in the social ranks (CEOs, bankers, etc.). And those who don't, well, as said, they often "socially drink" and have the bottle of orange juice laced with vodka on their desks as well.

Quote:
Guina, we differ in our interpretations of what might be in character and what would not. I see no aggression. Its a discussion, a debate - there is nothing wrong with debate. And this is a debate about the possible actions of a character briefly written 40 years ago who was supposed to be living in a future that took place 30 years ago.


Hooray! I like discussions. I love them actually. I unfortunately but rarely meet with people who don't take them personally. So this comes as a great relief!

That said - part of what I wrote is not exactly particular to Alec. It's more particular to anyone who's not a total jerk and who responds half way normal Wink.

Quote:
I have long believed that because I've witnessed it first-hand with friends over the years. I know it has led to a number of "I had an itch so I scratched it" encounters and occasionally encounters where the men were interested in seeing the women after the "dates" but the women weren't interested. With the three women I'm thinking of one was single, one was long-term separated (Catholic husband) and one was bi-sexual and for long-term relationships preferred women.


In danger of shoving this to Nfanfic level - I wouldn't need a survey to know this. Most women not taking the pill know this upswing of - err Grin rabid - interest for sex during a certain phase of the month.

Quote:
Mostly, none of them ever said that their occasional one-nighter (or over-the-weekender) was anything but satisfactory and good fun. And on rare occasion, a total waste of a good nights sleep! ... Though, interestingly (I think!) the conference one-nighter was a doctor, an oncologist, and said that after a day of discussing how slowly progress was being made in her specialism oesophageal and associated cancers you needed more than a drink. She smoked too.


I wasn't saying no women enjoy ONS. I was saying that I concur with what that report found out, that roughly half of them feel used the next day and end up disliking up to hating what happened. I have an equal number (liking : not liking) among my female friends, and noticed that those who liked the ONS mostly were women having a secure relationship. This of course may be incidental. We talk only a hundred or so females here, over at least 2 decades, not any significant number.

Quote:
And the article you cited did say that 54% of women had overall positive feelings about the experience. That is a (small, admittedly) majority.


I find it actually pretty heavy stuff that of 100 women having a ONS 46 end up disliking the fact, feeling used through it.

Now, my personal background is different than yours. I may place much more importance on that people end up liking sex and sexuality when they have it than someone else. I don't even expect others to think the same way. But to me that's 46 too many really.

And as among those female friends are some who really ended up hating what happened, usually because they realized that indeed they had been used in those cases, I personally still see a chasm between what we are led to believe is a modern outlook and what is reality.

*Chuckling here again*

I'm actually arguing the Devil's side currently here, as it is normally me who chaffs at too rigid morals. But as it is, when someone has the feeling of being (ab)used by sex I tend to listen very carefully...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Normandie
Captain
***
Offline


UFO Rocks!

Posts: 132
Location: In the veg patch...
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #18 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 3:01pm
Print Post  
Lightcudder wrote on Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:36am:
What I find interesting is that my intial 'preconceptions' of Alec, as an alcohol-enjoying womaniser, have really been fuelled, not only by my view of seeing the programmes as a 17 yr old over 40 yrs ago, but also by reading a lot of fanfiction that has placed him in that sphere So it is great to read valid and yet differiing views from people.


I think your comment is really interesting because I certainly have sometimes been influenced by fanfiction sometimes not in a good way - and Ive had to take my brain out and soak it in a strong solution of Miltons. Wink But that aside, I think reading Alec as a womaniser and liking (really liking!) a drink does have viable roots in the series.

However, whether one is meant to interpret his flirting as womanising and his liking for a drink as incipient alcoholism or whether it is just how writers at that time wanted to over-egg the contrast between Straker (cold(ish), logical, tee-total and priggish about it, usually not noticing women (Jo Frazer excepted) with warm, compassionate, flirty, loves a drink, Alec, I dont know. And its another discussion.

Lightcudder wrote on Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:36am:
One aspect that I hadn't seriously thought about in relation to sex and drinking is the current thinking of today's society.

I often notice how little regard in a lot of fiction ordinary or fan is paid to HIV / AIDS and sexual diseases generally. Now thats not a bad thing because especially in alternate universe fiction where HIV does not have to exist a quick discussion on sexual health prior to or during frenzied removal of clothing and miscellaneous body parts waving around would be difficult to write without breaking the mood (erm is that a candidate for a challenge one month??) and it is fiction, not RL sexual safety ad.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Normandie
Captain
***
Offline


UFO Rocks!

Posts: 132
Location: In the veg patch...
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #19 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 3:25pm
Print Post  
Alba wrote on Nov 18th, 2010 at 8:57am:
and here you are distracting me from writing a scene for Straker where he broaches the birds and the bees topic with Jolene. Can't say I mind, it is tacky going just now. *laughing heartily*

Sorry (sorta!) and can't wait to read it! Wink

Quote:
I know too many people who drink, on the job, off the job, anywhere.

Heck, Normandie, you should know! Just go into any sort of bistro at noon in France and watch what the French drink.

Sure. But they arent suddenly tasked with defending the world against alien invaders when their boss dies! Well, one assumes. Undecided

The sticking point for me is simple: Strakers judgement. Freeman as he was written in The Responsibility Seat (indecisive and borderline incompetent iirc) aside, Freeman is Strakers deputy and long-time friend or not, Straker would not invest Freeman with so much trust if he couldnt be trusted.

I dont see Straker blinding himself to faults in someone because they were mates. Perhaps Collins and Foster (Courtmartial) challenge that opinion but then again, I dont think so because Straker in those episodes wanted facts on which to base his decisions; he wasnt blind to the possibility of a problem.

To summarise: I wouldnt see having as you said a couple of scotches as out of character. Finding the bottom of an entire bottle of Scotch would jar. For me.

Also, as a brief digression, France is changing. Half a bottle of wine with lunch is no longer the norm or not in northern France. The south is a different country.

Here, I see far more water being consumed or 4% cider in this part of the world than I did, say, 20 years ago. Even France evolves. Just at a more measured rate than the rest of Europe. <snicker>

Quote:
Most women not taking the pill know this upswing of - err rabid - interest for sex during a certain phase of the month.

And, of course, it is what leads to a lot of girls looking at a positive pregnancy test and wailing but I only did it the one time and not realising that nature is subtle and cunning and will arrange for max hormones to equal loss of inhibitions at precisely the right time for sperm and egg to hi-five.

Quote:
I find it actually pretty heavy stuff that of 100 women having a ONS 46 end up disliking the fact, feeling used through it.

Indeed, couldnt agree more - but again, thats a different (though potentially no less interesting) discussion.

Going back to the original question as posed:

Quote:
Alec Freeman -was it in character for him to have the odd fling? to have (and I hesitate to use the phrase..) a one night stand? Not sure.


Yes, I still think it could be. Not definitely is, but could be depending on circumstances and the woman.

Do I see him going into a bar and picking up someone who batted her eyelashes at him? No. There are the security aspects apart from anything else.

Actress at the studios? possibly but not very likely.

Do I see him meeting / even seeking out a woman he knows and for one-off sex to be the result? Yes, I can see no reason to say categorically that he would not do that.

Does it automatically have to leave the woman feeling exploited / used? Well, in 2008, 54% of women surveyed said no.

So could Freeman have casual sex that is in character and works on some level for both participants? IMO, yes.

Of course, Freeman could feel bad about it afterwards he could feel he was used! Depends on how much angst is available to be spread around. Grin Woman takes advantage of Freeman when hes vulnerable not the normal route a UFO plot develops, je crois?!

And here, my thesis rests!

  Lips Sealed

« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2010 at 10:10am by Normandie »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Normandie
Captain
***
Offline


UFO Rocks!

Posts: 132
Location: In the veg patch...
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #20 - Nov 19th, 2010 at 10:11am
Print Post  
PS: Unzipping mouth briefly to add...

Of course, it may all be down to A Question of Definitions... of "fling... one-night-stand".

I thought about this last night and wonder if part of the reason Guina and I have different takes is definition.

One night stand equals from meeting to sex to never seeing each other again all in (about) 24 hours

Or...

Sex with people who know each other but where sex would not be on the agenda. But, for whatever reason, sex takes place with no intention / expectation on either side of it happening again.

Both work for me but the latter definition was in my mind... it may not have been in yours, Louise, or yours, Guina.

And if we apply the first definition only, then I think Alec having a one night stand with a complete stranger in the current circumstances (Straker just having been killed) is less unlikely.

OUPS!
I should have said...
And if we apply the first definition only, then I think Alec having a one night stand with a complete stranger in the current circumstances (Straker just having been killed) is less unlikely.
:Smiley


Lips Sealed
« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2010 at 11:42am by Normandie »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lightcudder
Colonel
*****
Offline


Trust no one.

Posts: 1311
Location: Here. When you least expect it
Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #21 - Nov 19th, 2010 at 10:43am
Print Post  
Hey Normandie, no need to zip!!

Yes. My thoughts on a 'one-night-stand' would possibly, having considered it, equate more to two close friends ending up in bed together.. ( although I am actually discussing a topic that I really know very little about!! Embarrassed )


I couldn't actually see Straker having a 'quickie' with some unknown 'bit on the side' and as you pointed out, the security aspects would probably prevent that anyway.

Quote:
I think your comment is really interesting because I certainly have sometimes been influenced by fanfiction sometimes not in a good way - and Ive had to take my brain out and soak it in a strong solution of Miltons.


Oh lord yes.... there is some really .. errrrr.... grubby stuff out there. and it does influence people in the wrong way..
 
A 'teaspoon' here and there soon adds up to a lot! And then new writers read and think.. ah yes..Straker; cold/teetotaller.... Alec; bumbling inefficient drunk... Ford; incompetent fool.
My views on the characters are constantly being revised; as I watch the episodes with an 'adult' viewpoint and also as a writer ( well, 'pretend' writer!!) looking for details.

I am really enjoying this discussion!! And I should be writing!!
 

  

I need some air.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Guina
Ex Member


Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #22 - Nov 19th, 2010 at 11:11am
Print Post  
Hi,

Quote:
Sorry (sorta!) and can't wait to read it! Wink


It's up already for the reviewing Grin And it was no easy writing.

Quote:
Sure. But they arent suddenly tasked with defending the world against alien invaders when their boss dies! Well, one assumes.


I wouldn't expect him to have a swig while under attack. But a couple of scotches after duty? Sure. Any time - and he still would be functional.

Quote:
The Responsibility Seat (indecisive and borderline incompetent iirc)


Personally I do not equal indecisive and incompetent and never saw Freeman as such. I think he might have trouble finding his own commanding style at short notice, simply because Straker stamped his all over HQ.

Quote:
Finding the bottom of an entire bottle of Scotch would jar. For me.


I don't remember anyone talking about the bottom of a bottle. Grin And even then, after duty I see no major problem, provided he has enough time to digest (e.g. on a weekend or day off).

Quote:
The south is a different country.


Definitely on the South Cheesy. But during my last visit to Paris I saw no major differences in the drinking/eating department, really. Except regarding smoking. And that was just last year.

Quote:
Do I see him going into a bar and picking up someone who batted her eyelashes at him? No. There are the security aspects apart from anything else.


That's more or less the basic idea - stranger - one time.

BTW - I work exclusively from canon (no thank you regarding fanon), there is no instance where dallying with girls/women per se during the whole series was a question of security. That sensitivity is a fanon-raised one! Just as protection details, bodyguards and whatever else. The series did not have any of that and Paul Foster flirted around quite wildly without even a second thought by any parties involved.

Quote:
Do I see him meeting / even seeking out a woman he knows and for one-off sex to be the result? Yes, I can see no reason to say categorically that he would not do that.


I basically agree that he might do that, normally and even given some minor to middling problem. However, I disagree he would do that to assuage his sorrow over Straker's death.

It's simply that I know that you very totally lose your libido in such a case, it's absolutely not on your plate. There might be people for whom that is different, but I doubt there are a lot of them. And yes, it does depend on the depth of the connection. With Alec and Straker, that is the sort of depth I mean.

Quote:
Does it automatically have to leave the woman feeling exploited / used? Well, in 2008, 54% of women surveyed said no.


This is not comparable. I doubt all those 54% women slept with someone who wanted to forget the death of his best friend by f**king a stranger as catch as catch can.

If that had been the case I would tender that these 54% as well would feel very much (ab)used. Shocked

There is a very big, a literally HUGE difference between having sex because you want to share fun, lust and well-being, and having sex because you need to deaden sorrow. Especially if you do not tell the other you are about to abuse him as a shrink-ersatz.

Quote:
So could Freeman have casual sex that is in character and works on some level for both participants? IMO, yes.


Freeman in Shepherd is a Freeman whose very best friend just died, whom he watched being autopsied, whose absence he has to come to terms with, who has to take over the command.

That's not the normal Freeman and I doubt there would be anything casual about such sex. If he had it, it would be damaging.

Quote:
One night stand equals from meeting to sex to never seeing each other again all in (about) 24 hours

Or...

Sex with people who know each other but where sex would not be on the agenda. But, for whatever reason, sex takes place with no intention / expectation on either side of it happening again.

Both work for me but the latter definition was in my mind... it may not have been in yours, Louise, or yours, Guina.


Per definitionem a ONS to me is a once off sex event with total (or mostly total) strangers. So your first definition is what is a ONS in my book, and not just mine:

Quote:
Wikipedia: Participants in a one-night stand typically have not known each other long and have had minimal time to get acquainted before engaging in sexual activity.


Sleeping once with someone you've known for quite some time already, or who you possibly slept with before, is no one night stand to me. That's just expanding the relationship. I wouldn't say it is likely under the here circumstances either, because then it is even more likely that that person knows that his best friend just died.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Guina
Ex Member


Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #23 - Nov 19th, 2010 at 11:16am
Print Post  
Hi Louise,

Quote:
Yes. My thoughts on a 'one-night-stand' would possibly, having considered it, equate more to two close friends ending up in bed together..


That's actually buddy-f**king (to turn your expression around  Grin), that's no ONS though.

Quote:
I couldn't actually see Straker having a 'quickie' with some unknown 'bit on the side' and as you pointed out, the security aspects would probably prevent that anyway.


And there I thought we were talking about Freeman...  :Smiley

And Straker simply wouldn't have a ONS, I'd say he belongs to the 30% males who won't consider this normally. He's far too repressed. I could - of course, I am a writer!!!  Grin - imagine situations in which he'd end up having one, but those situations would not include his purposeful participation - to put it politely.

Smiley


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Guina
Ex Member


Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #24 - Nov 19th, 2010 at 12:09pm
Print Post  
Hi Normandie,

Quote:
But that aside, I think reading Alec as a womaniser and liking (really liking!) a drink does have viable roots in the series.


He certainly was a flirt and a ladies' man, and he wasn't teetotaling.

But the way he so often was portrayed in fanfiction, as being a downright misogynic macho a**hole who didn't care for who he dallied with, that's simply not covered by the series.

Quote:
usually not noticing women (Jo Frazer excepted)


There's an answer in the offing to that one still. But as it involves "showing" I have put it off time and again, until I find the time for that.

Quote:
I often notice how little regard in a lot of fiction ordinary or fan is paid to HIV / AIDS and sexual diseases generally.


Actually I often think about this, and it will play a role in the current story (SoA). It also influences my take on how likely - in the modern setting - people are still/yet to freely engage. I have known pre-HIV and post-HIV times and the difference is marked, especially among those upwards of 20.

Quote:
Now thats not a bad thing because especially in alternate universe fiction where HIV does not have to exist a quick discussion on sexual health prior to or during frenzied removal of clothing and miscellaneous body parts waving around would be difficult to write without breaking the mood (erm is that a candidate for a challenge one month??) and it is fiction, not RL sexual safety ad.


One could be hopeful that a vacc against HIV finally gets found and it is common in SF/Fantasy to deal with the topic in that form there.

I have considered it in Blazes, but then there are even worse problems there for the mixed couples. So I sort of work on the premise that these Aliens not just do the contraception bit for their guinea pigs, but also the STD prevention one.

As to a challenge - pose one (but then you also have to write a story!) Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Guina
Ex Member


Re: Writing (and staying!) in Character
Reply #25 - Nov 20th, 2010 at 10:48am
Print Post  
Hi,

and as an afterthought - yes, I think some of the differing opinins here are caused by differing perceptions of what constitutes a ONS.

As said, I only see the "stranger/one night of sex" kind of thing as a real ONS. Usually accompanied/caused by "surplus alcohol" rather than "fireworks of sensual attraction".

What you described, Normandie, I would see as a change/expansion of relationship, btw often even worse in consequence than the classic ONS. I know quite a few formerly nice friendships which went entirely down the drain after a fling, usually because one of the parties was unable to put the devil back into the box and continue as a friendship.

The above regardless of what I said re Alec Freeman in Shepherd.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Add Poll Send Topic
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ LinkedIn reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo